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Subject: "Graphic representation" Archived thread - Read only
 
 
Conferences > International Anything BBS > Topic #5886
Reading Topic #5886

X
unregistered user
Aug-17-05, 10:52 AM (EDT)
 
"Graphic representation"
 
   Each X represents an Iraqi civilian killed since the US invasion. Roughly 26000 as an absolute minimum estimate.

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ill L
unregistered user
Aug-17-05, 10:59 AM (EDT)
 
1. "RE: Graphic representation"
In response to message #0
 
   Ok, so, armed with that "reality check" what conclusion are we to draw from that?

Are you offering a solution, or suggestion as to what our next move should be?

What's the point?

-ill L


 
X
unregistered user
Aug-17-05, 11:38 AM (EDT)
 
3. "RE: Graphic representation"
In response to message #1
 
   >Ok, so, armed with that "reality check" what conclusion are
>we to draw from that?
>
>Are you offering a solution, or suggestion as to what our
>next move should be?
>
>What's the point?
>
>-ill L

The point is numbers are hard to visualise sometimes. Alot of attention focused on those crosses down in Texas but no media I've seen has displayed a graphic like this to show the Iraqi cost of the war. If people could conceive of the slaughter behind the newstime statistics then they might be less willing to get suckered next time. So whilst people bitch about the rightness or wrongness of those crosses and take up partisan stances along party lines we lose sight of what is really happening.
Personally until I saw all those crosses, it was just a number to me.

I really, really wish I had an answer, honestly, but I don't. We can't stay and we can't leave. It just seems like we are painted into a corner.

Iraq has been turned into a hell on earth from what I can see. Today 54 people died in car bombs. In the last month 1100 civillians were brought in to the Baghdad morgue, many having been tortured and mutilated. Kidnappings, rape and murder are rife but all we hear about is the virtual reality "progress" that is being made.

I despise the total lack of accountability that permeates the Bush administration and the insane media spin that goes with it. I despise the self interested bland inneffectual left that refuses to stand up to it. Clinton was a charlatan. Bush is dangerously delusional and John Kerry had less personality than a potato. Saying "well we should pull out" is dumb, saying "we are making progress" is ridiculous, but reinforcing failure is just plain idiotic. We need some new ideas and fast, but unless people wake up and snap out of the left/right thing it's never going to happen.

Most of all I hate the fact that young americans are dying every day in Iraq to no purpose as their citizens live and die violently in a state of perpetual terror without even basics like electricity, running water and a minimum of personal security. And while this is going on, the man who instigated it all on a tissue of lies enjoys the good life on his Texan vacation with no sign of genuine remorse or even awareness of what is going on.



 
netweasel
unregistered user
Aug-17-05, 12:30 PM (EDT)
 
5. "RE: Graphic representation"
In response to message #3
 
   > Iraq has been turned into a hell on earth from what I can
>see.

turned into? these things were happening before.


 
ill L
unregistered user
Aug-17-05, 12:37 PM (EDT)
 
6. "really?"
In response to message #5
 
   >> Iraq has been turned into a hell on earth from what I can
>>see.
>
>turned into? these things were happening before.

26,000 people per year were being killed before our invasion??

-ill L


 
hardboiledcat
Member since Jul-23-02
6088 posts
Aug-17-05, 01:01 PM (EDT)
 
7. "RE: really?"
In response to message #6
 
   26,000 people per year were being killed before our invasion??

26,000 per year?? Where are you getting those numbers?
Besides, isn't it rather overstating the obvious that more people die
in wartime than in peacetime? Clearly this is true. It doesn't mean
that wars are not fought for good reason however. Is this one?
I like to think that it is. I could be wrong.

-Stan



 
ill L
unregistered user
Aug-17-05, 01:17 PM (EDT)
 
8. "RE: really?"
In response to message #7
 
   >26,000 people per year were being
>killed before our invasion??

>
>26,000 per year?? Where are you getting those numbers?

Sorry maybe more than a year now, right? Time moves so fast.

Where? The thread is discussing how many deaths since the war started. And then the thread said how this war has created "hell on earth", and then someone stated that this hell on earth existed like this before the war started, then I posted that if that was true then there were a comparable number of deaths during non-wartime to equal the "hell on earth" description, which is not true...therefore implying further evidence would be needed to support the equal value of the new "hell on earth" to compare to the implied previous. Not to mention the overall disintigration of quality of life.

>Besides, isn't it rather overstating the obvious that more
>people die
>in wartime than in peacetime?

Not the point of the post man, please stay on topic. : )

-ill L


 
Milan
Member since Dec-9-04
2025 posts
Aug-17-05, 01:28 PM (EDT)
 
10. "RE: really?"
In response to message #7
 
   >It
>doesn't mean
>that wars are not fought for good reason however. Is this
>one?
>I like to think that it is. I could be wrong.
>
>-Stan

I bet that you wouldn't say that if your wife was one of those X's. Detached from reality as usual...




 
netweasel
unregistered user
Aug-17-05, 07:52 PM (EDT)
 
11. "RE: really?"
In response to message #6
 
   >>> Iraq has been turned into a hell on earth from what I can
>>>see.
>>
>>turned into? these things were happening before.
>
>26,000 people per year were being killed before our
>invasion??
>
>-ill L

I seem to remember Sadam's regime was killing more than that. I would not exactly call it Disneyland before the US got there.


 
Milan
Member since Dec-9-04
2025 posts
Aug-18-05, 00:04 AM (EDT)
 
12. "RE: really?"
In response to message #11
 
   >>>> Iraq has been turned into a hell on earth from what I can
>>>>see.
>>>
>>>turned into? these things were happening before.
>>
>>26,000 people per year were being killed before our
>>invasion??
>>
>>-ill L
>
>I seem to remember Sadam's regime was killing more than
>that. I would not exactly call it Disneyland before the US
>got there.

Are you equating the US actions with those of Saddam's? Why you certainly do!
Why do you hate America so much?



 
netweasel
unregistered user
Aug-18-05, 12:08 PM (EDT)
 
13. "RE: really?"
In response to message #12
 
   >Are you equating the US actions with those of Saddam's? Why
>you certainly do!
>Why do you hate America so much?

No, I am not "equating" as I have stated that many more people were dying under Sadam's regime.


 
Milan
Member since Dec-9-04
2025 posts
Aug-18-05, 12:59 PM (EDT)
 
17. "RE: really?"
In response to message #13
 
   LAST EDITED ON Aug-18-05 AT 01:36 PM (EDT)
 
>>Are you equating the US actions with those of Saddam's? Why
>>you certainly do!
>>Why do you hate America so much?
>
>No, I am not "equating" as I have stated that many more
>people were dying under Sadam's regime.

"Statement"? It sure sounded like an excuse to me: "I would not exactly call it Disneyland before the US got there."



 
hardboiledcat
Member since Jul-23-02
6088 posts
Aug-18-05, 12:13 PM (EDT)
 
14. "RE: really?"
In response to message #12
 
   Are you equating the US actions with those of Saddam's?
Why you certainly do! Why do you hate America so much?

Are you trying to convince us that your brain is the same size as
Homer Simpson's? Because that's all that comments like that one
serve to do.

-Stan



 
Milan
Member since Dec-9-04
2025 posts
Aug-18-05, 12:58 PM (EDT)
 
16. "RE: really?"
In response to message #14
 
   >Are you equating the US actions
>with those of Saddam's?
>Why you certainly do! Why do you hate America so
>much?

>
>Are you trying to convince us that your brain is the same
>size as
>Homer Simpson's? Because that's all that comments like that
>one
>serve to do.
>
>-Stan

Awesome cheap shot Stan. Are you feeling defeated by your own logic?

Saddam killed 20.000 + innocent people. The US killed 20.000 + innocent people.

Now use your "huge" brain and explain to us what a fuck is the difference? Is it because "we didn't mean it" that makes our 20.000 dead OK?



 
hardboiledcat
Member since Jul-23-02
6088 posts
Aug-18-05, 01:37 PM (EDT)
 
18. "RE: really?"
In response to message #16
 
   Saddam killed 20.000 + innocent people. The US killed 20.000
+ innocent people.

Now use your "huge" brain and explain to us what a fuck is
the difference? Is it because "we didn't mean it" that makes
our 20.000 dead OK?

If you can't comprehend the implications of liberating an entire
country from a tyrannical despot and helping to establish a
democratic government of the people with a Constitution and
represenatation, then I can't begin to explain it to you.
Sometimes you have to look beyond the here and now.
Great things usually aren't accomplished through short-sightedness.
I know that may be difficult for you to understand right now, but
let's talk again in ten to twenty years from now.

-Stan



 
Milan
Member since Dec-9-04
2025 posts
Aug-18-05, 01:45 PM (EDT)
 
19. "RE: really?"
In response to message #18
 
   LAST EDITED ON Aug-18-05 AT 01:47 PM (EDT)
 
>Saddam killed 20.000 + innocent
>people. The US killed 20.000
>+ innocent people.
>
>Now use your "huge" brain and explain to us what a fuck is
>the difference? Is it because "we didn't mean it" that makes
>our 20.000 dead OK?

>
>If you can't comprehend the implications of liberating an
>entire
>country from a tyrannical despot and helping to establish a
>democratic government of the people with a Constitution and
>represenatation, then I can't begin to explain it to you.
>Sometimes you have to look beyond the here and now.
>Great things usually aren't accomplished through
>short-sightedness.
>I know that may be difficult for you to understand right
>now, but
>let's talk again in ten to twenty years from now.
>
>-Stan

Very nice words but they don't even touch my question.

I'll try again. Your "long-sighted" reasoning implies something like this: If Saddam killed your family, you would be very angry and would certainly seek justice. If the US killed your family, it would be OK because their cause was just. Hmmm... please make sense out of this for me. How does Ethic come into this? Does the end justify the means?



 
hardboiledcat
Member since Jul-23-02
6088 posts
Aug-18-05, 01:55 PM (EDT)
 
21. "RE: really?"
In response to message #19
 
   Very nice words but they don't even touch my question.

I'll try again. Your long-sighted reasoning implies
something like this: If Saddam killed your family, you would
be very angry and would certainly seek justice. If the US
killed your family, it would be OK because their cause was
just. Hmmm... please make sense out of this for me.

It's never good when people die, Milan. War sucks. On that you have
my complete agreement. But sometimes it is for a greater purpose.
Unfortunately, people die in wars. Innocent people die in wars. It's
very, very sad and horrible. Innocent people died in WWII, but I'm
damn glad the U.S. was a part of it. Innocent people die in Iraq, but
I like to believe that when the smoke clears, Iraq will be a freer,
happier country based on the rule of law rather than the whims of
an egomaniacal, murderous dictator, and the U.S. will have made
a formidable ally in the Middle East.

-Stan




 
Milan
Member since Dec-9-04
2025 posts
Aug-18-05, 02:19 PM (EDT)
 
22. "RE: really?"
In response to message #21
 
   LAST EDITED ON Aug-18-05 AT 02:20 PM (EDT)
 
<<But sometimes it is for a greater purpose.
Unfortunately, people die in wars. Innocent people die in wars. It's
very, very sad and horrible.>>

1) People didn't HAVE to die this time. Not from OUR hand. Bible or Aristotle, it doesn't matter, all rules of ethics agree, it's not right. Nothing justifies it. NOTHING.

2) It's easy to say "innocent people die in wars" if YOU don't have to die. To only say "it's sad" is very, very easy and irresponsible. You seem not to be able to comprehend of what death actually entails. At least not in someone else's case. This is the exact US arrogance that so aggravates anybody capable of free thinking.



 
X
unregistered user
Aug-19-05, 03:40 AM (EDT)
 
25. "RE: really?"
In response to message #21
 
   "I like to believe that when the smoke clears, Iraq will be a freer,
happier country based on the rule of law rather than the whims of
an egomaniacal, murderous dictator, and the U.S. will have made
a formidable ally in the Middle East."


I like tro believe I can sing like Barry White and pull 10$ bills out of my ass. Doesn't make it true though.

Thing is, none of the stuff yopu claim as progress is actually happening, and it's been said before the best way to get out of a hole is firts realise that you are in one.

Anyway, you don't seem earnest, I can see beyond the wind up.


 
AirborneVespa
unregistered user
Aug-18-05, 01:48 PM (EDT)
 
20. "RE: really?"
In response to message #18
 
   Yeah, you're right, the entire country was terrified of their tyrranical despot. Women didn't work, couldn't own property, didn't have the right to divorce their husbands (which they won't have under the new Government), etc.

Hell Stan, ten to twenty years from now Hussein would have been dead or overthrown anyway...and it wouldn't have cost any American lives.


 
chopper
Member since Jun-9-02
8035 posts
Aug-18-05, 02:42 PM (EDT)
 
23. "RE: really?"
In response to message #18
 
   If you can't comprehend the implications of liberating an entire
country from a tyrannical despot and helping to establish a
democratic government of the people with a Constitution and
represenatation, then I can't begin to explain it to you.

i wish i had a set of rose-colored glasses like yours. let's talk when there's a real democracy that lasts more than a year.

i said it before and i'll say it again. iraq is gonna end up an islamic republic. "iran II: electric boogaloo"



 
lewisscoot
Member since Aug-27-03
1314 posts
Aug-18-05, 07:34 PM (EDT)
 
24. "RE: really?"
In response to message #23
 
   well even good 'ol W is lowering the expectations in his speeches.


Gem City Rollers


 
rhodrie
Member since Apr-7-04
243 posts
Aug-19-05, 08:39 AM (EDT)
 
26. "RE: really?"
In response to message #23
 
   Iraq is going to get to be electric boogaloo. It will be worth it then. Saddam and W should have a dance off at the beginning and settled this like men.

"Nonsense is better then no sense at all" -NoMeansNo


http://www.nh-scooters.com/
http://autos.groups.yahoo.com/group/nhscooters/


 
ill L
unregistered user
Aug-18-05, 12:46 PM (EDT)
 
15. "RE: really?"
In response to message #11
 
   I don't think a pissing contest about who killed more when and under which regiem is going to help. The point about making a "hell on earth" I think was also pointing towards the complete dissemination of any kind of quality of life...ie, no water, power or economic structure of anykind anymore.

Not to mention the imminent civil war.

-ill L


 
Ellen
Member since Jan-7-04
1313 posts
Aug-17-05, 11:24 AM (EDT)
 
2. "RE: Graphic representation"
In response to message #0
 
   Killed by whom?

Ellen
2005 Stella
www.scooterdiva.com


 
x
unregistered user
Aug-17-05, 11:41 AM (EDT)
 
4. "RE: Graphic representation"
In response to message #2
 
   >Killed by whom?
>
>Ellen
>2005 Stella
>www.scooterdiva.com

Why does it matter? They are dead. Some US, some terrorist, some criminal.


 
Milan
Member since Dec-9-04
2025 posts
Aug-17-05, 01:26 PM (EDT)
 
9. "RE: Graphic representation"
In response to message #2
 
   >Killed by whom?
>
>Ellen
>2005 Stella
>www.scooterdiva.com

Dead as a consequence of US invasion. That's all you need to know.

EXAMPLE: If they use civilians as a shield and our military knows it and STILL pulls the trigger and carpet bombs civilian areas, who is responsible for the deaths of the innocent? The terrorists? Saddam, because he didn't step down when we told him so? Retarded logic.



 

 

 


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