home Scooter BBS USPS Mailbox Locator popular pages search the archives (1996-2010)

Jobs from Indeed


Subject: "False claims. Should be a law against this."    
Conferences > Illegal and Bad Scooters > Topic #26
Reading Topic #26

unregistered user
Jul-06-05, 00:15 AM (EDT)
"False claims. Should be a law against this."
   This NY dealer claims that this scooter has DOT and EPA. Did anyone ever found them? Did Tank ever answer the question?

This is their claim....
"The manufacturer is KTMMEX Motorcycle Manufacturer. These are DOT/EPA approved in California with the CARB approval pending."



Member since May-3-05
981 posts
Jul-06-05, 09:22 AM (EDT)
1. "RE: False claims. Should be a law against this."
In response to message #0
   If he claims EPA approval, he should have no problem showing you the EPA certificate or at least giving you the engine family code. The second sentence makes no sense. What does it mean to be "DOT/EPA approved in California"?

East Coast Scooter
unregistered user
Oct-05-05, 06:59 PM (EDT)
2. "RE: False claims. Should be a law against this."
In response to message #1
   If you do not know what you are talking about, you should ask the source. The claims in the auction are not false. KTMMEX is a licensed manfacturer of street legal products. I know because we are WWW.EASTCOASTSCOOTER.COM Owned and operated by C & K, Inc. of VT. a member of the New England Better Business Bureau with a perfect 4 year no complaint history, in partnership with East Coast Scooter of GA. and one of the largest US. distributors in partnership with KTMMEX of China who owns the brand name of Tank in the USA.

"The second sentence makes no sense" The reponder of the question states this because they do not understand the meaning of the abbreviations used or their reprentations.

DOT means it is Department of Transportation Approved by the USA Department of Transportation. EPA means it is approved by the Environmental Protection Agency to meet all standards for emissions testing, and CARB approval has now been granted in the state of CA. which represents: California Air Resources Board.

Does Tank answer questions to the general public? Typically no. They are a B2B company so if no answer prevailed then that is why because you are not a business customer of theirs. If the question was posed to the seller, and If you did not get an answer from that Ebay seller (My partner) Ebay seller id: eastcoastscooter2005 perhaps the email did not get through, it happens. The web is not perfect. Our Ebay seller Id is: East-Coast-Scooter with only one negative and many happy customers all over the US. Not just end users, but over 200 dealers nationwide as well. We stand by what we state to be fact!!!

I own the VT. office my partner owns the GA. office.

Niether we, nor Tank, or KTMMEX produce an EPA Certificate because the information can be located on a governement website, and in every DMV data base in the US, and some of the information on the certificate is considered confidential, and because of the numbers assigned to our products engines, and the expense of them. If we just handed them out to anyone another manufacturer or importer getting access to those numbers would allow them to produce engines of their own, on their own products, and operate falsly under the EPA numbers assigned to us.

Some states replace the COO/MSO/MCO or whatever you may find it called with their own state one such as OH. they bar code all their titles, so our MCO which stands for Manufacturers Certificate Of Origin they take and destroy but it must be presented when applying for registration and titling.

If you have further questions you may visit our contact page of our website: http://www.eastcoastscooter.com/ContactUs.asp and contact the GA. office direct or the VT office through our Toll Free number.

Going to sources that have no idea about imported products will not get you information that is not accurate, and can be misleading.

East Coast Scooter
unregistered user
Oct-05-05, 07:26 PM (EDT)
3. "RE: False claims. Should be a law against this."
In response to message #2
   I think it is time to update this site. We are C & K, Inc. owners of WWW.EASTCOASTSCOOTER.COM In direct partnership with Tank owned and operated by KTMMEX of China. Check the facts. The 49cc model has not been issued an executive order on the site, but has passed the testing and will be at the next update of the website.

I have posted the links for the 150cc Scooters and the 250cc Street bikes that show the executive orders. I also would like to comment on the claim that bikes were confiscated from Tankl for being 70+cc that is incorrect information. The company that happend to was Geely not Tank. Please try and get the facts straight.






Kevin Holcomb (Owner)
C & K, INC.
P.O. Box 38
Poultney, VT. 05764

unregistered user
Oct-06-05, 11:49 AM (EDT)
4. "RE: False claims. Should be a law against this."
In response to message #3
   LAST EDITED ON Oct-06-05 AT 11:59 AM (EDT) by admin (admin)
I get my information from EPA enforcement agents themselves.
Also, the urban sporty IS proven to be "bigger than 49cc" and I am more than happy to measure it again, so I think the facts here are show to be that the truth lies in the details. You can make any website you want, but the bike is still misrepresented as a 49cc.

I also know that your CARB is for 2006, as I have seen the paperwork, not for 2005. If you look at the dates on the pdf files, you posted the links, you will see I am right. Last i checked, this is still 2005. And I know you are selling 2005 models since the factory will not make next year labelled machines.

check YOUR facts.

Member since May-28-02
1518 posts
Oct-06-05, 12:15 PM (EDT)
5. "RE: False claims. Should be a law against this."
In response to message #4
   Oh, so check this out:


Where is your EPA cert for the 100cc?


East Coast Scooter
unregistered user
Oct-06-05, 03:40 PM (EDT)
6. "RE: False claims. Should be a law against this."
In response to message #5
   I can make any claims I want to because I happen top know the truth and that is just like cars Scooters, Motorcycles, and Mopeds are available in 2006 model before the year is over.

The only difference between what I say, and what you say is I clearly know what I am talking about, and you only think you know what you are talking about.

The factory will produce 2006 models in 2005 so you should get your facts straight.

As for the Sporty 100 on our site Bubba. I do not think anyone claimed that to be approved as of yet. Anywhere on this site, our site, or any other site for that matter. So what's your invalid point? Well?

As for us building any website we want that is a website that was over $10K in cost and growing, and clearly has more accurate information than this one does. We have over 200 dealers across the country and growing. I get paid to know what I'm talking about.

I think you got your facts twisted in with opinions not to mention CARB approval only matters in CA. The rest of the country does not have to meet those standards to be EPA Approved!

Review the 49cc model again if you like I got one I'll sell you and what do you know it's a 2006 model, just like the one you said was not being built yet. Hmmm that's odd since the person here responding to my quotes clearly does not appear to know as much as they claim.

From what I can see your facts are not facts at all but rather they are clearly biased opinions.

Member since May-28-02
1518 posts
Oct-06-05, 06:30 PM (EDT)
7. "RE: False claims. Should be a law against this."
In response to message #6
   hahahahaahaha, once again you show you are not the expert you claim to be.

If you are selling your 100cc now, its illegal since anything over 49cc requires EPA certification, so where is yours exactly? Im just checking, since you are selling a bike that isnt certified, and you admit it. So my point with your 100cc bike is that sure you don't claim its certified, but you are perfectly happy to sell it without the legal requirements. You havent been so quick to answer that one.


So you are selling a 49cc 2006 model, WHERE IS ITS EPA CERTIFICATE for that motor class, SLICK????? The 49cc excemption is expired for 2006 so I guess you are not aware of that either. So be sure to let everyone knwo when you are going to get real and stop playing games.
So to let everybody know, a 49cc bike needs an EPA cert if its 2006, and you dont have one for it, right? And so you are selling both the 100cc and the 2006 49cc bike illegally, right?

49cc for 2006 requires an EPA cert. thank you for pointing out that you dont have that and are selling them too. Well done.

How come you skip over the facts of your obvious violations, and pretend that 2 certificates cover your product line which has exactly HOW MANY motor classes again? You are either legit or you arent. You cant be sort of compliant.

I don't think you are as smart as you think you are. Now we all know it.

What is extra stupid, is I like the tank stuff just fine. Its the lying I hate.

Member since May-28-02
1518 posts
Oct-06-05, 06:34 PM (EDT)
8. "RE: False claims. Should be a law against this."
In response to message #7
   Oh and your site having more info than mine, HAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHA
Nice try. How about your web stats?

Lets just see.

HMMM look at this


you are ranked 4,393,577

and in contrast


We are 144,509

so the best news is, everybody in the scootering community is seeing how you are trying to get over on the american consumer with half truths.

East Coast Scooter
unregistered user
Oct-07-05, 08:46 AM (EDT)
17. "RE: False claims. Should be a law against this."
In response to message #7
   Listen just because the http://www.arb.ca.gov/homepage.htm website does not show the certificate has granted does not mean it has not been granted.

As for what we are selling no one said we were selling 100c without approval in that state. Just because it is on our website does not mean we are selling it in a state where it is not approved. In fact the 100cc are not do in until the end of Oct.

Not to mention what you have failed to understand in all of this is, there is a whole country out there not just CA. where EPA is not required in all the other states in the nation to make the item street legal.

I run a major operation that is a multi-billion dollar business and I do not care enough about anyone or anything to lie to them. I just can't stand other people out there stating there own opinions as facts!

We never said we were offering them to Ca. yet, now did we?

I like how you keep coming up with stuff unlrelated to what the original discussion was about which was in fact the main topic 150cc scooters. You have deveiated so far off the main subject that I am thinking you missed your calling son you should have been a lawyer. They are good at that too.

Apparently you think the whole country revolves around Ca. state regulations. You need to get out more. The rest of the country can buy and sell the 49cc and the 100cc if they want to without the EPA Certs being posted, or even granted. It is in CA. and TX. that these laws vary and the requirements are more strict.

Now that we have proven ignorance is bliss. I do not mind telling you that as far as I am concerned this debate is over. You have based all of your statements on CA. state law, and that does not apply to the rest of the country.

You have spun off from the original subject at hand which applied to a 150cc scooter. Which had to do with someone stating that CARB approval was pending and that it had passed EPA approval.

Now that the CARB. site has been updtated it clearly is listed that the item is approved for CA. by the CARB board. You have completely overlooked the fact that an EPA Cert can be granted without it being posted, and finally you have shown that you think that because something is not right in front of your face that the facts are not as they have been laid out to you.

Now I know you will have to get the last word in, because you are the lawyer type, and very argumentative so go ahead and get it out of your system as I will not respond again my point has been hammered home. Goog Day.

Member since May-28-02
1518 posts
Oct-07-05, 11:36 AM (EDT)
19. "Goog day to you!"
In response to message #17
   LAST EDITED ON Oct-07-05 AT 11:37 AM (EDT)
I posted the questions mentioned in the thread to my contact at the EPA:

Here is the response.

Dear Mr. Elliott:

Interesting discussion. It seems the East Coast Scooter folks are a bit
misinformed. They think EPA is a California agency!

You are right. No motorcycle larger than 50 cc can be imported or
introduced into commerce anywhere in the United States, its territories
or possessions, unless it is covered by an EPA certificate of
conformity. The only possible exception is California, and that is
because they (CARB) require an even more stringent certification process
than EPA does. Starting with the 2006 model year (which is already
underway) , even bikes smaller than 50 cc have to be EPA certified. The
certificate and the model year must coincide. Some motorcycles
manufactured now may be 2006 MY, while others can still be 2005. In
addition, the manufacturer's name on the certificate and the
motorcycle's manufacturer's name must also coincide, as must the model
number, which are also listed on the certificate.

If the folks at East Coast Scooters are selling uncertified bikes
outside of California, they are violating Federal law.

So I count East Coast Scooters as BUSTED! I would be lying if I said I hated to say, I told you so.

I am not going to openly divulge my source in the EPA, but I think all the importers know, but I will CC them the email if they want verification.

Member since Sep-27-05
270 posts
Oct-06-05, 08:03 PM (EDT)
9. "RE: False claims. Should be a law against this."
In response to message #0
   I, for one, am a little leary about a company OWNER (who is obviously in business to sell things and make money) that is so quick to get into a pissing match on this BBS. Is this how customer service would turn out to be as well? Maybe he doesn't realize the impact of arguing with a bunch of possible customers. I have seen other company reps on this BBS that even when attacked, handled the rebuttal with grace and dignity. I guess that is a little easier when there is nothing to hide. I'll keep shopping...

2005 TN'G Low Boy 150
2005 Kymco Bet & Win 250

I want to die like my grandfather, sleeping peacefully; not like his passengers, panicking and screaming.

unregistered user
Oct-06-05, 09:01 PM (EDT)
10. "RE: False claims. Should be a law against this."
In response to message #9
   I don't want to jump in here to defend anyone in particular but I will add this.

Yes you can produce 2006 Models in 2005 just like what is done with cars. This applies to the bike itself and the VIN# and plate will reflect the model year of the vehicle.

I can put 2005 EPA cetified engines in a 2006 model year bike. The DOT sticker will show the vehicle meets DOT standards at the time the vehicle is made. The EPA cert will show the year it is for, even if the vehicle is not the same year. There is no EPA or DOT rule that states the engine and the vehicle have to match in years.

The first digit in the EPA engine family refelcts the year the cert is for.
And of course the 10th digit in the VIN reflects the year the model vehicle is for. The DOT lable will show the actual month the vehicle is made.

So for right now you can import 2006 model scoots with 05 engines. Of course on January 1st this changes. You can not import an engine that does not meet 06 requirements after that date. That is when both years will need to match. That is also why so many companies will have a lot of problems around Jan 1 06. Also all engines imported after Jan 1 will have to meet EPA requirements regardless of size. So say byby to all those pocket bikes and mini choppers!

Member since May-3-05
981 posts
Oct-06-05, 09:21 PM (EDT)
11. "RE: False claims. Should be a law against this."
In response to message #10
   Sorry, but this is incorrect.

Engines are not certified. Vehicles are. This is why you can't use someone else's engine in a different vehicle and still have it compliant. This is also why the entire vehicle is tested by EPA, not only the engine. So, if you have a 2005 certification, you can't use it in 2006 vehicle, even if it's a 2005 engine.

EPA claims that they don't care about DOT and vice versa, yet they do rely on each other's information. This relationship is very unclear, but the main rule for EPA is that the Vehicle, not engine is certified.

Some companies claim that they can buy an engine from another company that is certified and thus be certified themselves. I've talked about this with top EPA officials and they specifically told me that this can't be done. Certification is between the manufacturer and the importer (the certificate owner). This way EPA has an easier way of assigning liability in case there is a problem with emissions.

I was also specifically told by the same person that if they see 2006 50cc bikes without EPA certification, the bikes will be confiscated. Even if these bikes are imported in 2005. 2006 refers to model year, which is the 10th digit of VIN AND the year on the MCO. THe two can't be different.

Member since May-28-02
1518 posts
Oct-06-05, 10:28 PM (EDT)
12. "RE: False claims. Should be a law against this."
In response to message #11
   deafening silence

Member since Jul-16-03
7408 posts
Oct-06-05, 10:46 PM (EDT)
13. "RE: False claims. Should be a law against this."
In response to message #12
   >deafening silence

Naw... I am fairly certain I heard the distinct sound of a bitch slap...

unregistered user
Oct-06-05, 10:48 PM (EDT)
14. "RE: False claims. Should be a law against this."
In response to message #11
   I stand corrected. You are correct about the entire vehicle being certified and not just the engine.

However we need to compare notes. In my talks with EPA (Mario) and NHTSA (David Coleman) DOT has nothing to do with enforcement of EPA regs, only their own and vice versa as you have eluded to. Both ask CBP to enforce their rules and from what I am told none of the 3 compare a DOT model year to the actual year of the EPA certs. At least not in reverse.

I may be 100% wrong here but here is my understanding. You can use a 2006 Engine family in a 2005 model. But not vice versa. The model year and the cert do NOT have to match.

So people know what we are talking about here is a Baron 2005 cert label.

By the way..... Is this Lev?
If so will you be in China next week? If so we need to meet!

Member since May-3-05
981 posts
Oct-06-05, 11:03 PM (EDT)
15. "RE: False claims. Should be a law against this."
In response to message #14
   Hey, Mike! Yes, this is Lev. I will be in China at the show and yes, we definitely should meet.

You can probably use 2006 certs on 2005 models, but why would you want to? Once a new cert is issued, the model should change to 2006. This is why we didn't change our model year yet. We're waiting for the 2006 cert.

At this time we have 2 certificates for 150cc scooters. One for Zhongneng and one for Jmstar. As you can see, we do private label work for other companies.

Member since Oct-3-05
6 posts
Oct-06-05, 11:08 PM (EDT)
16. "RE: False claims. Should be a law against this."
In response to message #15

I will call you tomorrow with my schedule. I will be all over the place but I fly into Guangzhou next Wednesday (midnight 15 hour flight! ARRGGG!!) I will give you my GSM phone number as well.

See you then.

East Coast Scooter
unregistered user
Oct-11-05, 08:40 PM (EDT)
27. "RE: False claims. Should be a law against this."
In response to message #15
   You would want to if the cert was issued in mid 2005 for EPA right? So if you have 2006 model year cert that takes affect in June of 2005 wouldn't it make sense to just make 2005 in complaince with the 2006 Certs until you are closer the the end if the year? That is what Tank did!

East Coast Scooter
unregistered user
Oct-07-05, 09:02 AM (EDT)
18. "RE: False claims. Should be a law against this."
In response to message #9
   You are correct I am in Business to sell things and make money. I however am also in business to take care of my customers and just to allow you to know that yes I am quick to defend my business because I do not like people running us down when they do not have all the facts just opinions. If you care to look however at how we do business then you will see our 4 year no complaint history with the New England Better Business Bureau.


I pay $400.00 a year to be a member of this organization to show that we do care about customers and our business. Our record stands for itself.

Joey Powell
unregistered user
Oct-07-05, 09:30 PM (EDT)
20. "RE: False claims. Should be a law against this."
In response to message #18
   RE: Better Business Bureau

I don't know about the New England BBB -
When I was in the retail fishing tackle business some years ago, the local BBB "offered" me the opportunity to join for a substantial fee. It sounded like a useful affiliation until I looked further and came to the conclusion that their business was that of soliciting memberships. Maybe the BBB is an effective watchdog for some products, but I don't think they would ever get a complaint from the purchaser of a fishing rod. That a particular business is a member of BBB proves only that a check was written.

East Coast Scooter
unregistered user
Oct-07-05, 10:44 PM (EDT)
21. "RE: False claims. Should be a law against this."
In response to message #20
   No sir,
It proves that in 4 years people who spend $1000.00-$3000.00 on every product purchased as end users, and Dealers who spend $5,000.00 to $150,000.00 or more a year with us have always been taken care of based on the fact that the BBB cannot lie, and issue a false reports, and our willingness to pay to be a member including signing several pages of documentation agreeing to Arbitration if a customer, or dealer did have a complaint and the signing of an agreement to abide by the Abitrators ruling proves that we believe in ourselves. We do not sell fishing rods we sell Power Sports products that cost much more than that and if people were unhappy they would complain it is human nature to do so. The fact that we are willing to pay those dues shows we are committed to customer satisfaction.

I do stand corrected over an earlier statement I made though when I mentioned information about EPA not being required in all states. I mispoke what I meant was that the CARB approvals were not required in all states, and only applied to CA. and that EPA approvals do not have to be posted on a website to be granted for the vehicles we sell but the vehicles themselves do have what they need for lables right on them, and that no one here has shown we do not have EPA certs for the Scooters we currently sell, but some are of the opinion that what they think is fact is because they say so.

I for one will be the first to admit when I am wrong, but even though some members of this site were proven to have spoken to soon and even when corrected by someone else I saw who posted information they could not own their errors in the statements they made following the other members comments proving only to everyone that they think they are above being wrong, and absolutely are infallible.

As for traffic to a site all I can say is we make plenty of money, and it is not by lying or taking advantage of the US consumer as some would state because we are one of only a few companies that actually not only offer a warranty on our products but stand behind it as well.

Total Unique Visitors by Month

Month Year Unique Visits Total Visits %
September 2005 28,780 55,908 100.0

Those are our web stats for Sept. 2005 not to bad I'b say almost 29,000 Unique Visitors, and a totel of almost 56,000 visotors. Not hits either actual visitors to the site. Someone must be seeing something they like considering we did about $150K in sales last month, and it was all street legal products. I'd say we are doing something right or people would be complaining somewhere either to the BBB or on Ebay in the feedback area. Since we are not getting either I must believe we have many happy customers who are getting their EPA DOT approved products registered without trouble. Hmmm. I'd say the numbers speak for themselves.

Few can say that they go out of their way to please all customers wthin reason of course but none the less we do bend over backwards quite often, but our customers know it to be a fact. I have plenty of money and do not need to lie about the products we carry, and sell just to make a few bucks.

To prove my point anyone who wishes to purchase any of our scooters that are street legal may buy one directly from us, and test our system out to see if our products are EPA and DOT approved for registration granted there are a few models we carry that have not been granted CARB approval in CA. but they are pending, and close to being settled there as well. However we do not offer them to those states at this time.

We also offer one of the best dealer support offices in the country. I am quick to defend my business, because while I make good money I also work 16-18 hours a day 5 days a week, and not to many people in this business can claim that they are there to answer phones and questions for their customers sometimes as late as midnight.

So without further comment if anyone wants to be in business, or would like to test our products for reliability and street legal credibilty feel free to talk to the VT. office of C & K, Inc. and East Coast Scooter. You can reach us through our easy to use site at:


Let us prove we know the rules, and sell products that are compliant with them.

Are you kiddng?
unregistered user
Oct-08-05, 10:16 AM (EDT)
23. "RE: False claims. Should be a law against this."
In response to message #21
   The BBB site says you have been a member since July, 2003. It is just a shade over 2 years. How is that a 4 year record? Is anything you say true ever? By the way, spell check is a wonderful thing.

East Coast Scooter
unregistered user
Oct-09-05, 06:34 PM (EDT)
25. "RE: False claims. Should be a law against this."
In response to message #23
   My my now isn't that inteligent. The BBB also shows we have been in business since 2001. You do not have to have been a member to have had a complaint filed against you.

We became a member to lend crediblity to an already clean record, and to make it simple if someone did have a valid complaint to file one in fact.

How long we are a member of the BBB does not protect us from having complaints filed against us, but of course you must have known that already because you are so smart.

As for spell check well I can't be bothered with being perfect. I am to busy taking care of paying customers. It must be nice to be so perfect though. Is your nickname GOD as well?


Kevin Holcomb (Owner)
C & K INC.


Import Wholesale Distribution

# 1 in quality power sports products & service

"We dare you to compare!"

Member since May-3-05
981 posts
Oct-07-05, 10:57 PM (EDT)
22. "RE: False claims. Should be a law against this."
In response to message #20
   Right on!

Joey Powell
unregistered user
Oct-08-05, 09:16 PM (EDT)
24. "RE: False claims. Should be a law against this."
In response to message #22
   I sold fly-fishing outfits that cost MORE than your scooters.

East Coast Scooter
unregistered user
Oct-09-05, 06:41 PM (EDT)
26. "RE: False claims. Should be a law against this."
In response to message #24
   All the more reason someone could complain to the BBB if they were unhappy with your products, Sir!

My point was that being a paid member made it easy for someone who spends money to complain against us if they were disatisfied with our products and services.

I have dealers who spend $50K-$150K a year with us, and those are the people who depend on us being a quality company.

You had mentioned that being a member proved someone had written a check my disagreement with what you said is there is much more that goes along with being a member of the BBB than that.

We have a committment to excellence both with our dealers and our end user customers in places where we have no dealers yet. So what being a member with a clean record means to me is yes I signed the check but I also have proven myself to be the kind of businessman that takes care of those who do business with us just as I am sure you did your customers when they bought fishing equipment from you.

Hope you are having a great day.


Kevin Holcomb (Owner)
C & K INC.


Import Wholesale Distribution

# 1 in quality power sports products & service

"We dare you to compare!"




The International Scooterist BBS is closed, but the archives live on. Please visit ScootRally.com for current, active discussions, or choose from this list of recent postings:

Stock Vespa P flywheels - Repair?

...And another thing. Scootrs

Any Austin TX Scooter people left?

Re: Fiberglass windshield windscreen

Re: Fiberglass windshield windscreen

Fiberglass windshield windscreen


Lambretta Wintermaster

Re: Taking\riding my Vespa throughout Europe

Re: Taking\riding my Vespa throughout Europe

Taking\riding my Vespa throughout Europe

Re: scooterhelp.com - sometimes we need a little help

Re: Smallframe exhaust issues

Re: Smallframe exhaust issues

Smallframe exhaust issues

comments powered by Disqus
Custom Search

ScootRally.com . ScooterBBS.com . Search the ScooterBBS.com Archive . Privacy Policy

International Scooterist BBS Archives